Curse

MasterSasori · Feb 14, 2010, 02:52 AM // 02:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by ElnoreVarda

PUGs arent any different from other people; there are more bad people than good people, so any given person are more likely to be bad than good. Its also very easy to invite and kick pugs until you find a player that suits your taste and needs. Also, just as a pug might be good, an alliance member can be bad (assuming you dont have any extensive knowledge about them)

You make a strong argument but I want to point out that Good v. Bad is relative. Those with more extensive knowledge of PvE will find the majority of PUGs to be bad. However the great equalizer H&H would be a better comparison. The question is now Heroes with a wiki build or Pugs? This would be a better comparison because we know that all heroes with identical builds should act the same assuming there is no microing.

Also for Good V. Bad depends on alot of what PUG you are willing to be in, what PUG you invite, and on a less pleasant note - whether you were wrong to believe in that person was bad.

ightgg · Feb 14, 2010, 03:47 AM // 03:47

Step 6: No, you are not a ritualist, unless you actually are a ritualist, of course.
You are an elementalist, or a ranger, or an assassin, or a mesmer, and so on, so why do you bring a whole bar full of spirits? Can't you see all those PvX copycats hanging around the outpost spamming "SoS lfp"? If we wanted a spirit spammer, we'd take one of them (which we probably already did), not you, since they can do a much better job of it than you can. Fear not, though; all is not lost, since you can do a much better job doing what your profession is made for, nuking, shooting arrows, doing awesome melee damage or just standing around making purple sparks in the air, respectively.

Omg i cried a little. So many posers in every other aspect of guildwars, why did they have to fake being a Rit. Your a player after my own heart <3
-Drama

ElnoreVarda · Feb 14, 2010, 04:08 AM // 04:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by MasterSasori

You make a strong argument but I want to point out that Good v. Bad is relative. Those with more extensive knowledge of PvE will find the majority of PUGs to be bad. However the great equalizer H&H would be a better comparison. The question is now Heroes with a wiki build or Pugs? This would be a better comparison because we know that all heroes with identical builds should act the same assuming there is no microing.

Also for Good V. Bad depends on alot of what PUG you are willing to be in, what PUG you invite, and on a less pleasant note - whether you were wrong to believe in that person was bad.

Although player skill+build is a major part in the good/bad equation, its not the only. There might be other qualities you want in a player; being chatty, have cons, picks up coin drops for party to name a few examples. Id say that good means "a player I want in my party". Obviously the definition of good will matter slightly from person to person.

maxxfury · Feb 14, 2010, 05:03 AM // 05:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dont Cause Drama

snip.....or just standing around making purple sparks in the air.......snip

That made me smile

feeling the mesmer <3

Quote:

Originally Posted by ElnoreVarda

Id say that good means "a player I want in my party". Obviously the definition of good will matter slightly from person to person.

A good player might not always be the most "technically proficient player" but be really nice and get the job done...so for sure id take someone who is good and nice to be around over someone who has a godly apm and micro skills, but is a complete go red engine'er!

HigherMinion · Feb 14, 2010, 05:05 AM // 05:05

Basically, Varda, you summed up perfectly what I was rushingly trying to explain.

Cheers.

qvtkc · Feb 15, 2010, 04:10 PM // 16:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Solar AUS

Hi There.

I am a relatively new player (few months now) and really enjoy the game.
I liked the initial post and the intention. Thx for the tips.
It’s sad that the discussions turns into “what build is best/ better” etc

I Pug the z miss (HM) I do and my experience is surprisingly good. Thx to all the good guys out there. All z miss I did so far, could be completed even with not-perfect builds. The “common sense” from the initial post + half decent communication seems to be far more important than perfect builds. My exp is that missions fail when ppl leave, go afk, DC ...

I run a pretty “HM unfriendly” Searing Flames Fire Nuke/ Burning build (fire skills only, Gl Less Eng, 2 enchantments + Intensity, 2 weapon sets: enchanting/ fight). And yes all my armor is dyed red ;-) I might change the build later when I have access to more PvE skills. However, that’s what I have for now and I also like the “role play aspect” of it. I am just not a fan of the Necro “look and feel”, but hey, that’s just me … and while Im on it, the Ele dance is pathetic.

Normally I can find a group within a few minutes. In yesterdays z miss “Thirsty River” we had 2 ppl (out of 6 I think) running “fire/ burn builds” (no EotN skills) and the miss still went through with no probs.

Hi there! Happy to hear you liked the OP. Being a new player it seems you are doing just fine.

About the Searing Flames build, sure it might be called "HM unfriendly" but not so much if you team up with other SF eles. I monked in a team including three SF nukers a couple of days ago, and we cut - or should I say, burned - through the mission with such a speed that people started asking if this really was HM we were playing.
Of course that's what happens when you take some time to set up a good team

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dont Cause Drama

Omg i cried a little. So many posers in every other aspect of guildwars, why did they have to fake being a Rit. Your a player after my own heart <3
-Drama

I love you too man

Chthon · Feb 16, 2010, 02:33 AM // 02:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moloch Vein

There are several nice monk builds. WoH hybrid works just fine if you find a guy that actually knows how to use it. You're right, it takes more skill than ER/Prot to be really effective, and it's more of a "toolbox" build than ER, which is robust, limited and overpowered. Also, you should customize it for maximum PvE efficiency. I can't believe how many Mo/E who haven't realized what a wonderful skill Air of Superiority is.

I'd be curious to see your WoH hybrid with AoS on it. The picture that forms in my mind has 9 skills, and I'm wondering what you drop.

1. WoH
2. Spot Heal #2
3. PS
4. Aegis
5. Seed of Life (or SoA)
6. Hex Removal
7. Condition Removal
8. Selfless Spirit
9. AoS

Quote:

ER won't get nerfed. It gets enough flack from bad players to ensure Arenanet never gets to it.

I'm inclined to agree. A-net's threshhold for PvE-motivated nerfs seems to be very high. Something as ridiculously broken as outright invulnerability has taken ages to get a nerf. ER is (comparatively) less potent and not nearly so widely used.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sankt Hallvard

There's another point that most of you seem to miss. By getting "better pugging" as per thread title you can achieve this by lowering your expectations rather than making strict demands on the pug.

IMO, when you join a pug you should embrace the higher risk that comes with playing with unknown builds and players. Try to adapt your playing to subpar builds/players, you will learn more and you will likely have a lot more fun. (Which incidentally playing games is all about)

The thought of lowering my expectations simply so that I don't "feel" that a bad PUG is bad strikes me as artificial and circular. I might however join a bad PUG for other reason. For example, sometimes I join "7/8 GLF healer" PUGs to hone my skills on a team that's going to put a lot of pressure on me as a healer.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

Yes, I would make sure to ask if anyone has any intension to sabotage the team by leaving or disconnect or leeroy or afk or misleading us with fake build, before entering mission. That should solve all pug problems once and for all. Right....

While such a direct approach rarely works, you can learn enough to make reasonably accurate predictions by asking people to ping and engaging in conversation in town. Most people who display behavior problems in the field also display behavior problems in town. You just have to look.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ElnoreVarda

Also, just as a pug might be good, an alliance member can be bad (assuming you dont have any extensive knowledge about them).

Yes. While my alliance includes several of the best PvE players currently active in GW, at least two of the guilds seem to be filled entirely with people who range from bad to awful.

Quote:

What to do and not to do in a pug is up to the individual player. What floats my boat might not float yours. Some people like to order others around, some are loot maniacs, some just want to relax, some like to troll, some want friends and the list goes on forever. There are no right or wrong black and whites, there are more and less acceptable/popular behaviors.

While I don't disagree, I'm a bit surprised that you take that position given your personal "build-nazi" approach to pugging. (Which, btw, works extremely well.)

MasterSasori · Feb 17, 2010, 05:18 PM // 17:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by ElnoreVarda

Although player skill+build is a major part in the good/bad equation, its not the only. There might be other qualities you want in a player; being chatty, have cons, picks up coin drops for party to name a few examples. Id say that good means "a player I want in my party". Obviously the definition of good will matter slightly from person to person.

A difference in definitions. I would consider that a "person I want in my party" person but not a good/bad player. A lot of my friends I do mish/vanq are definitely not good but I love doing stuff with them because its fun.

Daesu · Feb 17, 2010, 08:53 PM // 20:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

While such a direct approach rarely works, you can learn enough to make reasonably accurate predictions by asking people to ping and engaging in conversation in town. Most people who display behavior problems in the field also display behavior problems in town. You just have to look.

If they are willing to deceive you by pinging you a build that they dont intend to bring to the mission, chances are, you won't be able to find out in town unless you know his reputation.

qvtkc · Feb 18, 2010, 01:04 PM // 13:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

If they are willing to deceive you by pinging you a build that they dont intend to bring to the mission, chances are, you won't be able to find out in town unless you know his reputation.

Some people are so inexplicably noob that they bring up the template code and then click send to chat. Others do that to fake their build.

How to know?

If they ping quickly after you ask them to, and the text in chat says "My skills are [skills]", not just "[skills]", then it's probably ok. If it only says "[skills]" or it takes a significant time, and you suspect something, kick them. One good test if you're not sure is to ask them to change one skill and ping again.

Yasmine · Feb 18, 2010, 02:15 PM // 14:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by qvtkc

How to know?

If they ping quickly after you ask them to, and the text in chat says "My skills are [skills]", not just "[skills]", then it's probably ok. If it only says "[skills]" or it takes a significant time, and you suspect something, kick them. One good test if you're not sure is to ask them to change one skill and ping again.

If somebody wants to fake a build that they can run there is sadly no way to uncover it as they could just load it, ping it and then reload a different one - it takes a few seconds if they have it saved. Ofc if they can't, you can simply ask them to cntrl+click on the skill bar. If they want to fake it they will have to type "My equipped skills are" and then send the template in the team chat while if the cntrl+click it will be a computer generated phrase. In the last case, switching language, will switch the phrase's language as well while it won't (obviously) happen in the first case.

Sankt Hallvard · Feb 18, 2010, 03:13 PM // 15:13

Wow. You guys are seriously paranoid. Heaven forbid someone runs a non-pro pug-demanded build causing Teh Pug to fail. Pugging is srs bsns.

Reverend Dr · Feb 18, 2010, 06:35 PM // 18:35

Too many people in this thread have the "I'm right, you're wrong" attitude. Ironically this is the attitude that causes most pugs to fall apart.

While the E/mo that is insisting his ether prod prot build is amazing and the W/mo with 4 monk spells 3 defensive stances and sever artery making the same insinuation are different in the final effectiveness, both of their attitudes are the same.

Pugs are about cooperation. Of course the first thing many with this attitude are going to say is they should cooperate with me!. If you want a pug run your way, you have to start it, you have to hand pick people. If you are coming into a pug started by someone else, you are going to have to make concessions. If running your "leet" build, whether eprod prot or whammo is something you refuse to give up, then at the very least this pug is not for you, but most likely no pug will ever live up to your expectations.

So many people are blind that they have the same exact attitude of the worst players that they are trying to criticize.

Daesu · Feb 18, 2010, 09:09 PM // 21:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reverend Dr

Too many people in this thread have the "I'm right, you're wrong" attitude. Ironically this is the attitude that causes most pugs to fall apart.

While the E/mo that is insisting his ether prod prot build is amazing and the W/mo with 4 monk spells 3 defensive stances and sever artery making the same insinuation are different in the final effectiveness, both of their attitudes are the same.

Pugs are about cooperation. Of course the first thing many with this attitude are going to say is they should cooperate with me!. If you want a pug run your way, you have to start it, you have to hand pick people. If you are coming into a pug started by someone else, you are going to have to make concessions. If running your "leet" build, whether eprod prot or whammo is something you refuse to give up, then at the very least this pug is not for you, but most likely no pug will ever live up to your expectations.

So many people are blind that they have the same exact attitude of the worst players that they are trying to criticize.

Which is why I said, having a chit-chat with each member of your party to screen out the bad apples is iffy and not very practical. Spending just 2 mins talking to a stranger to sound them out would imply 7x2=14 minutes for a 8-player team and if you find a problem with them, that would mean kicking them, get another one, and talking to them again. Not to mention GLF for the right profession, the right build, etc.

I think I can form a safer team FASTER, just by calling on my guild/alliance members if I really need the team to succeed. Otherwise, PUGs are PUGs and I only use them if I have the time to waste for failures. It is all fun.

qvtkc · Feb 19, 2010, 02:05 PM // 14:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

Which is why I said, having a chit-chat with each member of your party to screen out the bad apples is iffy and not very practical. Spending just 2 mins talking to a stranger to sound them out would imply 7x2=14 minutes for a 8-player team and if you find a problem with them, that would mean kicking them, get another one, and talking to them again. Not to mention GLF for the right profession, the right build, etc.

I think I can form a safer team FASTER, just by calling on my guild/alliance members if I really need the team to succeed. Otherwise, PUGs are PUGs and I only use them if I have the time to waste for failures. It is all fun.

Some people think failure is fun, I guess. I don't. That doesn't mean that I'm all SRS BSNS

about PUGs, especially in PvE. But when I lead a PUG I feel I have some sort of responsibility towards the other team members to make sure the team at least stand a decent chance to get through the mission/dungeon in one piece.

Thin slicing goes a long way and you'll see very quickly, no two-minute discussion needed, how interested a player is in cooperating with the team, and how experienced of a player he is.
And if he's not, does that mean you have to get rid of him? Not really, but since you as a leader is the filter, maybe it would be a good idea to try to limit the amount of people who are more interested in bickering, leeroying or just plain being apathetic to not encompass the entire team.

When I join a PUG I don't think like that at all though. I join, say hi, ping my build, try to be part of the ongoing discussion (which is easy most of the time since the usual discussion involves everyone being silent), and if this seems like a fun/decent group I'll stay. If it's the sort of group where the leader announces that we don't need healers if everyone takes a self-heal, and everyone agrees with him (true story), I'll leave. Or stay, just to watch the train wreck.

Daesu · Feb 19, 2010, 07:29 PM // 19:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by qvtkc

Some people think failure is fun, I guess. I don't. That doesn't mean that I'm all SRS BSNS

about PUGs, especially in PvE. But when I lead a PUG I feel I have some sort of responsibility towards the other team members to make sure the team at least stand a decent chance to get through the mission/dungeon in one piece.

You should not be feeling a sense of responsibility just because you are the PUG leader. Unlike a real leader which is voted in, no one in your group has voted to listen to you and also there is absolutely nothing you can do if your team chooses to go their own way when the mission starts. You can quit or try to kick people out when it fails and you get back to town but when the mission started you have no power. With power comes responsibilities but without power you have none.

Let's be honest, they joined your team not because they knew or thought you are a great player and trusted you to lead them, but simply because they just wanted to get into a group. Sure, you can try to filter, but really most PUG players do not expect much out of their leader and many of them wouldn't even want the hassle of being a leader in the first place.

Quote:

Thin slicing goes a long way and you'll see very quickly, no two-minute discussion needed, how interested a player is in cooperating with the team, and how experienced of a player he is.

How experienced a player is does not necessarily mean he wont be a pain. May be his mom would call him to go eat dinner and he would have to afk there and then. It has happened before.

Quote:

And if he's not, does that mean you have to get rid of him? Not really, but since you as a leader is the filter, maybe it would be a good idea to try to limit the amount of people who are more interested in bickering, leeroying or just plain being apathetic to not encompass the entire team.

So the best you can do is try to limit but that is still not as good as getting a guild/alliance team with people that you already know and trust.

I just dont think PUGs have as high a chance of success as a good guild/alliance team or compared to my H/H team, even with all these so-called "filtering" in-place. So what is it you want? If I really want to succeed in the mission, I would call my guild/alliance or use my heroes. But if I have the time to fail, I may PUG for fun if I feel like watching the drama.

Quote:

When I join a PUG I don't think like that at all though. I join, say hi, ping my build, try to be part of the ongoing discussion (which is easy most of the time since the usual discussion involves everyone being silent), and if this seems like a fun/decent group I'll stay. If it's the sort of group where the leader announces that we don't need healers if everyone takes a self-heal, and everyone agrees with him (true story), I'll leave. Or stay, just to watch the train wreck.

And that is what you need to do when you join a PUG, be prepared for the train wreck and keep an opened mind. If you are not, then you may be in for some frustrations.

So take it easy when you PUG, give people chances and just have fun!

Chthon · Feb 19, 2010, 08:17 PM // 20:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reverend Dr

Too many people in this thread have the "I'm right, you're wrong" attitude. Ironically this is the attitude that causes most pugs to fall apart.

While the E/mo that is insisting his ether prod prot build is amazing and the W/mo with 4 monk spells 3 defensive stances and sever artery making the same insinuation are different in the final effectiveness, both of their attitudes are the same.

That's why I prefer the "I'm right, you're stupid attitude."

Seriously though, there's a very important difference that you're overlooking. Good players expressing something to the effect of "I'm right, you're wrong" have arrived at that point through a meaningful analytical process. I tell you "I'm right, you're wrong," because I at least considered your build's merits (or the merits of a similar build in the past) and have concluded that you are indeed wrong. I just as easily could have ended up saying "I've never seen that before, but it looks promising" or "I've never seen that before, and I'm not sure what to think about it, please explain it to me" had the analytical process come to a different result. The W/mo with 4 monk spells 3 defensive stances and sever artery who says "I'm right, you're wrong" is either not making any effort to evaluate alternative builds, or he's just stupid.

In short, a good player only says "I'm right, you're wrong" when that's the case; a bad player says "I'm right, you're wrong" unconditionally. It's a big difference.

FoxBat · Feb 19, 2010, 09:45 PM // 21:45

But really. Most E/Mos didn't arrive at their build by thoughtful analysis, they just read it on a forum or stole it from PvX or a friend. If you present them something they haven't seen frequently in either place, it will be dismissed on that basis alone.

I'd like to say running a good build != good player, but it's arguable that PvE generally doesn't boil down to much more than good builds.

Reverend Dr · Feb 19, 2010, 10:06 PM // 22:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

In short, a good player only says "I'm right, you're wrong" when that's the case; a bad player says "I'm right, you're wrong" unconditionally. It's a big difference.

If you take a step back, you'll realize that you never have access to who is a "good" player or who is "right." These are things that are only arrived at through community consensus. In the case of a PuG you have only 8 people, not the community. In either case both players with the "I'm right, you're wrong" attitude come off as not much more than self-important RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOs.

Sure you can come to the community later and look for vindication, but you will most likely receive ridicule for getting into an argument with a pug.

I don't know how else to put it. Just as confident you are that you are a "good" player and that you are "right", that is the exact same confidence that everyone else taking that attitude. They will consider themselves bad the same moment that you would consider yourself bad. This is why this attitude, regardless of "right" and "wrong", will always hurt a pug.

Chthon · Feb 20, 2010, 10:55 PM // 22:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reverend Dr

If you take a step back, you'll realize that you never have access to who is a "good" player or who is "right." These are things that are only arrived at through community consensus.

I'm right, this is bullshit.

GW is a game of mathematics. That X is superior to Y is a transcendental, mathematical truth. It is true whether or not the community consensus takes note of it. It is true whether or not any member of the community is even aware of it. Moreover, one does not need the community to mediate this truth -- only mathematics and knowledge of the game's underlying equations.

To illustrate my point: You and I agree that ER is the strongest backline build for general-purpose PvE, correct? I posit that it has been the strongest backline build since the minute ER was buffed. It was the strongest backline build for the couple weeks between the buff and when the first people started figuring out the build. It was the strongest backline build when it was only championed by a few people like Jeydra, while Guru's community consensus was "WoH." It is now the strongest backline build even though the broader community beyond Guru is barely aware of it. Transcendental, mathematical truth. Or are you telling me that whether or not ER was "good" and whether someone arguing that ER was better than WoH was right varied over time as the community consensus changed?